比利时前首相：世界需要务实发展，但总有人在故意鼓动对抗

现实总是与政治家们的理想有所差距，但我认为我们可以尝试着一步步跳出目前欧盟采取的“均势”策略。当前，美国及其部分盟友的对华敌意不断上升，与此同时，另一个以中国为代表的（新兴市场国家）集团正在形成。这两大集团之间的对立情绪不断加深，原因在于有人在故意鼓动所谓“民主对专制”“自由市场对国有经济”的对抗性叙事。实际上，今天的现实要复杂得多，我们需要更加务实的解决方案，而不是意识形态对抗。

Reality is, most of the times, different to what we dream as politicians, but my vision would be that we could, step by step, try to put aside this as much as possible -- this kind of balance of power approach, where you have a rising antagonism of US and some countries that follow the US, and then a new to-form bloc with China in the lead, where you have a rising antagonism, artificially fueled by, for instance, putting into the one against the others, the so-called ideal governance of democracies versus autocracies, or free market versus state-run economies. Actually, the reality today is much more complex, needs much more pragmatic, rather than ideologically-driven solutions.

至于中欧合作，我真心希望采取一种更多元化的方式。

And to come to your question, I would really plead for a more pluralistic approach.

我敢肯定，许多国家更愿意保持中立，而非加入某一阵营。我认为，中国的领导人已经表示对分享权力持开放态度，应采取多元和多边主义实现全球治理；而美国领导人至少口头上也说过类似的话。我认为这是有利于弱化大国竞争和二元对立、实现多元共生的正确方式

I'm sure that there are lots of countries that are preferring to have a nonaligned position than just to join one of the two sides. And I think that Chinese leadership, and also sometimes in wording at least, the American leadership, have phrased positions that are open to share power and to have a kind of multilateral pluralistic approach to world governance, to global governance. I think this is the right way to have a pluralistic and less balance of power approach, less two-sides antagonism approach.

我希望，通过冯德莱恩与博雷利近期的表态，欧盟能展示其不会成为美国“小跟班”的态度。诚然，就安全问题而言，欧盟非常依赖美国，此外，欧美之间在价值观和社会政策方面有许多共识与共同之处。但是，我们应当对其他治理体系与政策持开放态度。因此，谈及欧盟立场时，我认为欧盟应该发展战略自主，成为全球多元治理的一部分。

I hope that the narrative that was put forward by the European Union through the voice of Mrs von der Leyen and Borrell could also tender this to say we will just not be a junior partner of the US, to which we are very loyal in terms of our security needs, of course, and we share lots of things with the US in terms of values and views on society. But let's be open to other systems of governance, other approaches. And so when it comes to position of the EU, let's develop our own position and be part of the pluralistic.

例如，在以G20为基础的全球治理体系中，巴西、印度、南非、印尼、印度等新兴大国可以在共享治理、共享权力和共享解决方案方面发挥非常重要的作用。2024年，巴西将成为G20轮值主席国，我认为这可能是一个重要的时刻。

For instance, G20-based global governance, where also upcoming powers like Brazil, India, South Africa, Indonesia, India could play a very important role in sharing governance, in sharing power and in sharing solutions. We will have, one of the next years, I think it's 2024, we have Brazilian leadership, the chairmanship of the G20, I think that's potentially an important moment.

最后一点，我还发现了一些推动治理多元化的重要迹象，金砖国家成立了新开发银行，为国际贸易和全球市场提供美元之外的货币选择，我认为这是一个好迹象。我认为共同治理、共享权力优于集团对抗。

Last element, I see those who are important in order to install a more pluralistic governance. I see it as a good sign that you have now this New Development Bank, that you have other currencies, trying to offer an alternative to world trade and markets to the dollar. So I think sharing governance, shared power is better than this kind of antagonism between two blocs.

记者：您对中欧关系与合作未来有何预测？

伊夫·莱特姆：

公平公开地说，我认为我们现在已经失去了数年时间，现在是时候采取新的思维方式了。欧盟委员会已经提出了建议，也有一些对话在开展之中。正像我刚才说的，欧盟当然应该捍卫自身利益。外交政策更多的是关于利益而不是价值观。过去的成功经验告诉我们，我们在捍卫自己利益的同时，也应该对中国开放，改善贸易、科研合作和交流。

I think to be fair and open, I think we lost some years now. It is time now to come to a new way of thinking and the European Commission has put proposals on the table. There are some good conversations going on. I would say, referring to an earlier response, that the European Union should, of course, defend its own interests. Foreign policy is much more about interest than about values, but defend its own interests, but should also, like it has been in the past successfully doing, we should be open to China, improve trades, improve scientific research cooperation, exchanges.

我希望一旦我们更好地定义了我们所谓的“安全利益”——我们当然必须捍卫自己的安全利益，就像中国、美国和其他国家那样——一旦我们更好定义了“安全利益”，我们就能找到足够的广阔的合作空间。

I would hope that once we have better defined what we call our security interests -- fair enough, you have to defend them like China does and like the US and other countries do -- once we have defined them that we find sufficient space, vast space for cooperation.

最后一个要素，我认为一个国家不能只看到它的组织机构、它的领导人，还要多关注它的人民，“国之交在于民相亲”。企业、科学家、学生，甚至家庭，旅游业都可以助力国家间的交往。我希望中国和欧盟之间能够继续在这种直接交流方面加大投入。

Last element, I think that a country is more than its structures, institutions and leadership -- it's about people. It's about improving the possibilities for people to exchange, companies, scientists, students, even families, tourism can help. And I would hope that between China and the EU, we continue to invest in these direct exchanges.